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	Comments on: Xanathar&#8217;s Guide Breakdown, Part Eleven	</title>
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	<link>https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/</link>
	<description>D&#38;D / Role Playing</description>
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		<title>
		By: Dave(s) 4 Goombella		</title>
		<link>https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-5042</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave(s) 4 Goombella]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2018 14:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.tribality.com/?p=23499#comment-5042</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-5029&quot;&gt;Brandes Stoddard&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks for the response. I think you&#039;re absolutely right that the difficulty lies in the fact that the &quot;core cleric&quot; and the various domains are often at odds with each other, thematically, and that creates some mechanical problems as the game gets modular. (You&#039;d think the Warlock would have a similar problem, but Wizards seems content to allow more internal contradictions in that case. For example, every Warlock gets access to Xanathar&#039;s demon-summoning spells and its cloak of flies invocation, even Angelic Warlocks)

I&#039;ll be interested to read your take on the cleric when you get to it in the history of classes. Depending on the edition, the cleric itself (i.e. the armored healer) is treated as a fundamental base class (as in fifth edition) or as more of a specific archetype of priest (as in second edition).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-5029">Brandes Stoddard</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks for the response. I think you&#8217;re absolutely right that the difficulty lies in the fact that the &#8220;core cleric&#8221; and the various domains are often at odds with each other, thematically, and that creates some mechanical problems as the game gets modular. (You&#8217;d think the Warlock would have a similar problem, but Wizards seems content to allow more internal contradictions in that case. For example, every Warlock gets access to Xanathar&#8217;s demon-summoning spells and its cloak of flies invocation, even Angelic Warlocks)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll be interested to read your take on the cleric when you get to it in the history of classes. Depending on the edition, the cleric itself (i.e. the armored healer) is treated as a fundamental base class (as in fifth edition) or as more of a specific archetype of priest (as in second edition).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brandes Stoddard		</title>
		<link>https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-5029</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brandes Stoddard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Mar 2018 15:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.tribality.com/?p=23499#comment-5029</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-5028&quot;&gt;Dave(s) 4 Goombella&lt;/a&gt;.

I super appreciate you pitching me a question I&#039;ve been looking for an opportunity to write about. Gold star to you today. =)

First off, you&#039;re definitely right that clerics get the short end of XGTE&#039;s spells. No question.

The deeper issue with the cleric, and the bard as well for that matter, is that the spell list makes one assertion about what the class is, but that&#039;s increasingly at odds with the themes that subclasses support. When it was just the &lt;em&gt;Player&#039;s Handbook&lt;/em&gt;, it was easy and sufficient to solve that with spells that were also found in the PH - so we have the Trickster domain&#039;s spell list offering spells that are nothing like the rest of the cleric list. But when there&#039;s a huge new infusion of official spells in official books, there&#039;s no mechanism for giving Tempest clerics all of those new storm-themed spells, or even Forge clerics those new fire spells, because XGTE content is strictly &lt;em&gt;a la carte&lt;/em&gt; - no interdependencies.

The core cleric playstyle - the one that the spell list plans to support - seems to be the Life cleric. As I noted above, WTF, &lt;em&gt;wall of light&lt;/em&gt;? I mean, even the most trivial support of the Light cleric should justify pulling that one in, right?

I think my takeaway here is that spell spheres are messy and maybe an excessive throwback to 2e, but it sure would give them a box for their new spells, so a subclass can get a spell without every cleric getting it. Obviously, DMs comfortable with homebrew work can handle 1:1 substitutions for domain expanded lists, or judge whether just adding extra options is even a problem, but &quot;let DMs use their own judgment on the backend&quot; is a decision to ignore the question, not answer it.

To narrowly answer the last question you asked, I think that giving clerics almost nothing and giving druids lots of new spells suggests that choice paralysis is probably not what goes on here (since cleric and druid spell prep work similarly). Yeah, I&#039;d like to see more spells for clerics.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-5028">Dave(s) 4 Goombella</a>.</p>
<p>I super appreciate you pitching me a question I&#8217;ve been looking for an opportunity to write about. Gold star to you today. =)</p>
<p>First off, you&#8217;re definitely right that clerics get the short end of XGTE&#8217;s spells. No question.</p>
<p>The deeper issue with the cleric, and the bard as well for that matter, is that the spell list makes one assertion about what the class is, but that&#8217;s increasingly at odds with the themes that subclasses support. When it was just the <em>Player&#8217;s Handbook</em>, it was easy and sufficient to solve that with spells that were also found in the PH &#8211; so we have the Trickster domain&#8217;s spell list offering spells that are nothing like the rest of the cleric list. But when there&#8217;s a huge new infusion of official spells in official books, there&#8217;s no mechanism for giving Tempest clerics all of those new storm-themed spells, or even Forge clerics those new fire spells, because XGTE content is strictly <em>a la carte</em> &#8211; no interdependencies.</p>
<p>The core cleric playstyle &#8211; the one that the spell list plans to support &#8211; seems to be the Life cleric. As I noted above, WTF, <em>wall of light</em>? I mean, even the most trivial support of the Light cleric should justify pulling that one in, right?</p>
<p>I think my takeaway here is that spell spheres are messy and maybe an excessive throwback to 2e, but it sure would give them a box for their new spells, so a subclass can get a spell without every cleric getting it. Obviously, DMs comfortable with homebrew work can handle 1:1 substitutions for domain expanded lists, or judge whether just adding extra options is even a problem, but &#8220;let DMs use their own judgment on the backend&#8221; is a decision to ignore the question, not answer it.</p>
<p>To narrowly answer the last question you asked, I think that giving clerics almost nothing and giving druids lots of new spells suggests that choice paralysis is probably not what goes on here (since cleric and druid spell prep work similarly). Yeah, I&#8217;d like to see more spells for clerics.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave(s) 4 Goombella		</title>
		<link>https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-5028</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave(s) 4 Goombella]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Mar 2018 13:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.tribality.com/?p=23499#comment-5028</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s not a whole lot for Clerics amongst the new spells (apart from the welcome addition of a couple new cantrips).

Do you think there are any gaps in the Cleric spell list that need filling, or do you think that the Cleric already has enough trouble choosing their spells known for the day?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s not a whole lot for Clerics amongst the new spells (apart from the welcome addition of a couple new cantrips).</p>
<p>Do you think there are any gaps in the Cleric spell list that need filling, or do you think that the Cleric already has enough trouble choosing their spells known for the day?</p>
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		<title>
		By: John Nunn		</title>
		<link>https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-5006</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Nunn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2018 18:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.tribality.com/?p=23499#comment-5006</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[IMHO, Shadow Blade&#039;s problem for Shadow Sorcerers is the &quot;sorcerer&quot; part. Twinned Haste (impossible for non-sorcerers) is often a much more efficient use of one&#039;s Concentration than Shadow Blade. The spell is great for all sort of gish builds, though.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMHO, Shadow Blade&#8217;s problem for Shadow Sorcerers is the &#8220;sorcerer&#8221; part. Twinned Haste (impossible for non-sorcerers) is often a much more efficient use of one&#8217;s Concentration than Shadow Blade. The spell is great for all sort of gish builds, though.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Manos Ti		</title>
		<link>https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-5004</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Manos Ti]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2018 13:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.tribality.com/?p=23499#comment-5004</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-5002&quot;&gt;Jonathan Alvear&lt;/a&gt;.

Yes Dave, it is great. I&#039;m even taking this for my Bladesinger who just leveled up (yes, we can pick spells from all WotC published material in this campaign).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-5002">Jonathan Alvear</a>.</p>
<p>Yes Dave, it is great. I&#8217;m even taking this for my Bladesinger who just leveled up (yes, we can pick spells from all WotC published material in this campaign).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jonathan Alvear		</title>
		<link>https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-5002</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Alvear]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2018 21:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.tribality.com/?p=23499#comment-5002</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-4987&quot;&gt;Dave(s) 4 Goombella&lt;/a&gt;.

You&#039;ll still want to pick up Shadow Blade.  Perfect fit for the Whispers Bard&#039;s Psychic Blades feature.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-4987">Dave(s) 4 Goombella</a>.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ll still want to pick up Shadow Blade.  Perfect fit for the Whispers Bard&#8217;s Psychic Blades feature.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Vaegrim		</title>
		<link>https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-4996</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vaegrim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Mar 2018 20:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.tribality.com/?p=23499#comment-4996</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Everyone underestimates Tiny Servant just because it&#039;s tiny! It&#039;s a combat minion you create with a 3rd level spell; just like skeletons, zombies or conjured animals. 

Tiny servant acts as an interesting alternative to animate dead. If you compare the stat-lines, Servants and Skeletons trade pretty evenly against each other: same average damage, trades some HP/AC, different vision modes, etc. Both are created with a 3rd level spell slot and require recasting each day, but don’t need concentration to maintain. I think the servant comes out a bit ahead in durability (more immunities, AC is more valuable than HP 1:1, better initiative), but it’s arguable and they’re well behind zombies.

Animate dead absolutely outpaces tiny servant if you’re casting it more. That improvement comes with some overhead though, as you have to keep your skeletons alive(?) and deal with the RP ramifications of your undead entourage. Tiny servant drops that complexity, but keeps the “minion master” game style. It gives you a manageable entourage of effective melee weapon attackers that are disposable, completely loyal, and difficult to stop.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everyone underestimates Tiny Servant just because it&#8217;s tiny! It&#8217;s a combat minion you create with a 3rd level spell; just like skeletons, zombies or conjured animals. </p>
<p>Tiny servant acts as an interesting alternative to animate dead. If you compare the stat-lines, Servants and Skeletons trade pretty evenly against each other: same average damage, trades some HP/AC, different vision modes, etc. Both are created with a 3rd level spell slot and require recasting each day, but don’t need concentration to maintain. I think the servant comes out a bit ahead in durability (more immunities, AC is more valuable than HP 1:1, better initiative), but it’s arguable and they’re well behind zombies.</p>
<p>Animate dead absolutely outpaces tiny servant if you’re casting it more. That improvement comes with some overhead though, as you have to keep your skeletons alive(?) and deal with the RP ramifications of your undead entourage. Tiny servant drops that complexity, but keeps the “minion master” game style. It gives you a manageable entourage of effective melee weapon attackers that are disposable, completely loyal, and difficult to stop.</p>
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		<title>
		By: crimfan		</title>
		<link>https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-4993</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[crimfan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2018 14:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.tribality.com/?p=23499#comment-4993</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-4983&quot;&gt;Jonathan Alvear&lt;/a&gt;.

IMO it should have just been on the list.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-4983">Jonathan Alvear</a>.</p>
<p>IMO it should have just been on the list.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Episteme		</title>
		<link>https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-4990</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Episteme]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2018 03:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.tribality.com/?p=23499#comment-4990</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Scatter reminds me of all the joyful moments that Baleful Transposition has brought into my gaming life...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scatter reminds me of all the joyful moments that Baleful Transposition has brought into my gaming life&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Manos Ti		</title>
		<link>https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-4989</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Manos Ti]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.tribality.com/?p=23499#comment-4989</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-4988&quot;&gt;Dave(s) 4 Goombella&lt;/a&gt;.

Well, you are lucky for that. Our is still going strong (they are currently level 8 and they have up until level 15 - provided that all of them survive). And because they started two years ago when only PHB, EEPC and SCAG where out, these are the only two resources permitted for new characters, with the PHB+1 rule.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.tribality.com/2018/03/14/xanathars-guide-breakdown-part-eleven/#comment-4988">Dave(s) 4 Goombella</a>.</p>
<p>Well, you are lucky for that. Our is still going strong (they are currently level 8 and they have up until level 15 &#8211; provided that all of them survive). And because they started two years ago when only PHB, EEPC and SCAG where out, these are the only two resources permitted for new characters, with the PHB+1 rule.</p>
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